A Martini Quandry (dry vs. extra dry)

Cocktails and mixed drinks
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I have a question that has been bothering me, If this belongs in the current martini thread (Though i do believe it’s a separate topic) i’m happy to relocate.

I’ve been spending a lot of time reading and learning about the Martini, I’ve served thousands at this point in my cereer as a working bartender and the variety is endless, but one thing i cant nail down amongst peers is a matter of the prefix “dry and extra dry” and how it pertains to the assembly of the drink.

as i understand it - or at least my interpretation of it - the prefix refers to the the style of vermouth being used, this makes the most sense to me because if i have noilly on hand or dolin dry, and i make a 4:1. that’s a “dry” martini for most people.

personally i like a semi dry martini, 3:1 with a mix of bianco and dry. this is to me a “semi-dry” martini but then when i ask people how they make an extra dry martini, their answer is, 5ml - rinse the serving glass/mixing glass and to me this makes no sense, considering we have brands of vermouth that are labelled “extra dry” and would be perfectly comfortable in a drink at quantities greater than 5 ml and they would still be “extra-dry” martinis.

It seems that to me that the logic doesn’t line up. All things being equal, the “extra-dry” martini doesn’t make sense to be the absence of vermouth rather than the style of vermouth. For all other variations it’s the style over quantity. what do i call a 3:1 with extra dry vermouth, is that dry again?

Some people swear by certain ratios (i’ve been told extra dry is only a rise and everything else is wrong) but this seems foolish to do as martinis are a personal drink that seems to be wonderful in most combinations of volume and style. is this a reaction to most bars not having most types on hand because not enough people order them? it seems to me at least somewhat logical that you would use less of a sweeter “dry vermouth” to emulate the sugar quantity of a extra dry in terms of brix% for the whole drink but it doesnt seem logical to me that the vermouth caps out at 10ml for a 60ml pour of gin in every case of the drink which is another way you might find it built. i’m happy to assume that in the case of most bars, the “extra dry” using less of a regular dry be an emulation of style without being a true “extra dry”.

I cant find any literature that explains this subject in the depth that i need to make a firm decision about how i approach this. how do you make an extra dry martini? why? is there a right or a wrong way? is it by volume or style? please, i need to lay this to rest.

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I hear your pain.

So, yes, “dry martini” simply means a martini made with dry vermouth. This is a fact with a lot of (not-widely understood) history behind it.

And yeah, “extra” doesn’t mean a damn thing. IIRC, the word “extra” enters the picture in the mid 20th Century when dry vermouth producers were trying to outdo each other with milder and—most crucially—colorless products. Their problem was that the perceived quality of the martini had become inversely associated with how tinted it was by the vermouth. In a nutshell, a tinted martini was interpreted (particularly by drunks) as containing too much vermouth and not enough booze: i.e., poorer value to the customer and (by false implication) a less desirable flavor. So, bottom-feeder vermouth producers set about filtering the yellow out of their vermouth and were marketing themselves as “extra dry”. We still see “extra” on some vermouth labels, today.

Along the way, many customers—insecure and easily confused as they are—started prefixing their martini orders with “extra”. They might as well have been saying “five star” or please-serve-me-a-side-order-of-validation. People who order an “extra dry martini” simply don’t know what they’re talking about, but are fervently convinced that they do. They believe they have uttered expert, magic words. I’ve had to conclude that many people who order martinis don’t even particularly like the drink, they just like what they think it confers as an accessory to their appearance and ego. You can hand these people virtually any ratio of martini and they will be perfectly happy as long as they can retain the illusion.

The bald truth, of course, is that the martini is just about as simple a mixed drink as exists, and—as you point out—is wonderful in so very many different ratios and combinations of products. And, yes, it needn’t be “dry” at all. When unsuspecting friends and acquaintances find their way to my lair, a sweet martini is often their reward. I’ve never had one rejected, even by people I’ve previously overhead pontificating.

Sorry, that got ranty.

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I can imagine being the type of bartender who would give these people a healthy splash of vermouth and not tell them, and I can imagine being the type of bartender who would give these people straight gin, but I can’t imagine being the type of bartender who would assume that bothering with a 5 mL vermouth rinse would make the difference in their happiness.

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I wrote a whole chapter about this subject in my 2019 book “The Martini Cocktail.” You may want to check it out. Put simply, a “dry” martini, in the days before Prohibition, meant a Martini made with dry vermouth as well as London dry gin, as opposed to the Old Tom gin and sweet vermouth used in the earlier Martinis. After Prohibition, the meaning of “dry” changed to refer to the amount of vermouth used; the less vermouth, the drier the Martini. Anyone who orders a dry Martini today is referring to the amount of vermouth, not the type of vermouth.

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Dry means, “no dry vermouth,” and “extra dry,” means dry vermouth rinse or swirl glass and dump.

A regular martini gets dry vermouth.

Any bartender who puts dry vermouth in a “dry martini” is the reason patrons have to emphasize, “No vermouth!” Instead of just asking for a “Goose martini, dry.”

Go ahead and put dry vermouth ina dry martini but don’t be surprised if it gets sent back.

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At the gin bar I worked at a few years ago, we had a 3 ounce build all with 2 dashes orange bitters:

Reverse → 2 oz dry vermouth: 1 oz gin
50:50 → 1.5 oz dry vermouth : 1.5 oz gin
Wet → 1 oz dry vermouth : 2 oz gin
Dry → .5 oz dry vermouth : 2.5 oz gin
Extra dry → .25 oz dry vermouth : 2.75 oz gin
Bone dry → 0 oz dry vermouth : 3 oz gin

This was only standard at our bar but I’ve taken it with me. Even folks who say that they don’t want much vermouth are generally very happy with a 5:1 or even a 3:1. Martini is about impressions that they make to others including when they order them (see Lowell Edmunds’ treatise Martini, Straight Up). And most folks are happy if their language translates to the bartender as something better than ballpark in their glass.

In the end, it’s all a conversation and limited by language unless recipes/ratios are specified. And even with ratios, there are differences in gins (proof and botanical strength) and vermouths (full bodied like Carpano Dry vs. high acid like European Noilly Prat vs. soft like Dolin). My favorite 2:1 with Beefeater succeeds with Noilly Prat but fails with Carpano Dry (which is better 5:1). A Martini is a conversation that needs follow up questions and we haven’t even mentioned glassware, presence of ice, what sort of garnish, or volumes (will it get warm, is a sidecar needed, etc.).

There are some drinkers who only trust certain bars and certain bartenders to make their drink right and other drinkers who are happy if it’s cold and close enough. There isn’t a single answer to this unless brands, measurements, techniques, etc. are covered (and probably adjusted in a second round adjust for things like ice type and quality, etc.) but most bar guests are just ecstatic when they see their drink being made with care and respect.

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Ah man - i’ve been meaning to return to this topic. got carried away with work

I ended up buying Roberts book (Great book by the way) and i feel that after reading that, oxford guide to spirits and cocktails, and imbibe, with a spattering of verious other sources - I believe the conclusion was the one mentioned earlier in this thread, that dry was historically the style of vermouth and that extra dry was simply just less dry vermouth. a regular martini is the same thing as a dry martini - at least in the mordern context, something around a 4:1 or 3:1 whereas a extra dry would be anywhere from 5:1 or less.

no source i’ve read on the topic talks about a dry martini being served without vermouth

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It’s a super confusing topic as definitions of words change through time.
I did a longer writeup on it as part of researching for the Barchive not too long ago which covers a lot of the transition from fancy gin cocktail, to martini to extremely dry.

Hope it’s useful to answer your questions if you haven’t already finished the book! :slight_smile:

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New relevant @RobertSimonson piece:

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Who knew that batches freezer Martinis would amount to yet another way for vermouth to lose in the Martini game?

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Having worked in a bar for the last year that has a lot of martinis being ordered - the one thing I’ve really enjoyed is seeing people who come in wanting a dry martini, leaving happily with a 50:50 or other variant that I might tell them about, if I have time to speak to guests - it’s a really easy conversation to have that guides people into different variants and generally to the brilliantly soft style of more approachable martinis - I’ve seen people go from martini haters to lovers in just a few sips of a 50:50 And from vodka only to gin accepting from a perfect martini.

I have a few local distillery friends who even gave me some bottles of vermouth to keep behind the bar and being able to upsell on the vermouth or the style of martini I feel gives the guests a lot more confidence to try different styles and more trust in the venu. If bartenders don’t know what the variations of ingredient or build are then is how could vermouth even stand a chance. Everyone knows what vodka and gin are.

I think the issue vermouth has is the same one rum has - in so far as neither category are taken seriously by passers by, rum because of flavored and spiced rum that doesn’t represent the category - it’s a ball and chain to rum ever being taken seriously and vermouth in drinks has a relationship of being remembered as the thing you want less of so why would someone think to order more of it in a drink - and especially not if they don’t know of the styles that exist in the category

People wont get educated about vermouth but the guests who do take the chance to learn and try new things end up with some of their favourite drinks if they’re daring enough to leave the comfort of the dry martini.

Vermouth probably won’t get as popular as it deserves, but that doesn’t stop us from living in the golden age of it where more and more people are able to put out amazing vermouths and we have more access to them than ever before.

I could talk forever about vermouth how it gets no attention in most drinks that it assists in or is dominant in but maybe that’s not for this thread.

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I typically enjoy gin martinis in a 3-1 ratio with a dash of orange bitters and a twist of lemon. Maybe a few blue cheese stuffed olives if I’m in the mood.

But my big takeaway from years of enjoying these classics is that the brand of vermouth makes all the difference. I did a tasting once with several different brands and they all played completely differently with the baseline gin I was using (Tanqueray). And of course, to each his own when it comes to gins.

As my friend Ted Haigh said to me once (I’ll paraphrase) “there is no one correct way to make a cocktail”.

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I’m not sure how much success vermouth deserves but aromatised wines growth over the last 15 years has been nothing but amazing. If the compound interest on your savings was anywhere close the yearly growth % of the category, you’d be one happy fellow :wink:

There’s a lot to unpick in @RobertSimonson’s article. Just a couple of comments:

  • Lascelles is right when she says “For all the talk about a vermouth renaissance, I don’t think most people could tell you the difference between vermouth brands”. This is indeed the weird thing about the vermouth renaissance. Unlike the gin boom of the last twenty years, where consumers got to know new brands and understand better what they liked or not, we have utterly failed, as educators, to instil the same degree of knowledge about vermouth. I have taught probably thousands of people over the last decade, and that’s a fact. And yet, in spite of that failure, vermouth is in a much better place than it’s been in about 70 years or more. Crazy.
  • Batched Martinis: I don’t buy Bodenheimer’s point on pre-batched Martinis.The fact is that most pre-batched martinis are terrible because dilution. On three occasions over the last couple of years I have told a bartender their batched Martini was not cold enough. Each time they have measured the temperature and proven it was adequate. So why did I feel it was warm? Water. Or rather, not enough water. I’m sorry, Neal, but maybe putting more vermouth, by actually increasing the ratio of water in the final drink, would make for better batched martinis. Nuance be damned.
  • Precisely because we’re drinking more (shit) Martinis, the quantity of great Martinis is much higher than it’s been in years (numbers!), and I’m all for it. I don’t remember if it was @Splificator or someone else who made the point years ago that the cocktail renaissance didn’t really impact the Martini. Us geeks embraced the fitty-fitty but the cocktails that went mainstream were the Old Fashioned or the Negroni. Yeah, the resurgence of the Martini owes a lot to 90s drinking. But more people seek out good Martinis than only a few years ago.
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Despite knowing better, after years of proper fitty-fitty’s, my tastes lately veer more and more towards a kind of mid-twentieth century 5 to (at worst) 6:1 build of London Dry to dry vermouth with a fainter and fainter half hearted dash of Regan’s orange bitters (in the ice cubes). I like a sharper taste, and definitely prefer the acidity of NP over Dolin or Carpano, however over the summer in Fairhope, Alabama of all places, I discovered Cocchi Dry which is still basically unavailable in NYC. I do think there is a place for a really well made martini of this era without it being a bird bath of cold gin.

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This is exactly what I’ve done for many years, except “bone dry” I would rinse the glass and shake out as much as I could. I’ll add that the bars I’ve worked at in San Francisco all defaulted to “dry” if no words were used to specify vermouth quantity (5:1).

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Cocchi Extra Dry is certainly impressive. I’ve purchased it at Union Square Wines. Hopefully, it will gradually become more readily available. There are plenty of vermouths on store shelves I’d happily jettison to make room for it.

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Whenever I’m dealing with such quandaries I refer back to Dave Embury’s book and the way he very early on established his sour spec as being too strong or too dry for most people. Not too long after that he just dumps on cocktails with egg whites and creams; saying they aren’t cocktails by his standards, but that you should know them because people drink them and like them.

Martinis are a conversation. They’re not just a set formula. Regional preferences and experiences will shape how a person orders a Martini and we should be more considerate of what the guest expects vs what we suggest.

Yes there’s the history of the evolution of this cocktail. Presumed to have originated from a Martinez where the specs were 1 part Gin : 2 parts Vermouth (bitters + Luxardo). Then it evolved into the Martini and likely took on a similar spec before going 50/50 and eventually evolving further with the craziest of ratios: from 1:2 to 1:1 to 2:1, 3:1, 5:1, 7:1, 15:1, etc.

But the everyday drinker is a result of that ever-evolving palate. Thru education we might be able to enlighten our guest with an enhanced cocktail experience, but ultimately it’s their journey.

Personally I might suggest that a guest try a 1:2 or 50/50 with Ki No Bi Sei Gin, but might suggest 15:1 with Beefeater, etc. Just for examples.

This doesn’t mean that that’s the only way to drink it, nor should we feel the impulse to force others to have something they don’t want. It’s an educational moment to make those suggestions, but we shouldn’t be offended at the idea that some people want a Winston Churchill Martini.

I had a guest ask me what Gins we had that they might not have had before. I mentioned Ki No Bi Sei. They ordered a dry martini. I took the time to suggest having it wet so that the oily, tea flavors can really shine. He declined. I made him his dry martini. However it was slow at the bar and I thot it would be fun to bring him a tasting of what a wet martini with that Gin would taste like. He had it and loved it more than his dry Martini. His next 2 were wet.

BUT even that doesn’t mean I was right and he was wrong. It means his palate enjoyed it. He probably trusts me more now and he’ll be more open to Vermouth on his next Martini order.

For me it’s not about forcing guests to enjoy drinks the way I see fit, but rather it’s about showing people what the other thing they think they don’t like actually tastes like. Sometimes one bad experience will deter them from trying things they might actually love. As bartenders we should be better at putting that all together: the history of a drink, our preferred way to have it, the palate of our guests, their experience with the drink, and the expectations they may have.

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I feel pretty good about Fred’s dry vermouth classification scheme here, any other thoughts on this? And where does Cocchi land?

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To me, Cocchi is full bodied. It’s made from the Cortese grape, from which Gavi is made. Its flavor is fairly unusual -in a good way- relying more on lemon and mint than the traditional “pizza” herbs I get from other dry Torinos. I agree that it makes a wonderful martini.

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Was bumming around online and found this article. I guess at one point there was a ruling on what was a dry martini (if only for bottled versions.)

1dry
1dry568×904 140 KB

2dry
2dry349×651 53.1 KB

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